I am not as "on the scene" as some of you probably are ...

I am trying to guage the risks for both of these types of racing...

The reason I am posting is b/c on a different website...the mx community lost 4 people since about October....that is pretty alarming to be honest..!!!

Comments and observations are very welcome and appreciated !!

Thanks,
Chad

Personal data:

Hare Scramble / Cross Country racing...15 broken bones, 2+ concussions, punctured / collapsed lung, and one care-flite. 11 years of having a blast with family and friends...

MX...2 championships, 1 series 2nd place, 1 broken hip, 2+ concussions. 7 years having a blast wth family and friends....

Most off roaders tell you MX is more dangerous. Most MX'ers fear trees. Do both, be careful what you do, and watch out for the other guy.

Welcome aboard.

Chad:

I raced nothing but motocross from 1968 through 1982. I have been racing harescrammbles from 2000 through today.

I'm sure there are alot of extenuating circumstances surrounding my history; however racing motocross and practicing motocross I have had:

1. Broken back casing 150 ft triples------------------motocross
2. 8 different knee surgeries-------------------------motocross
3. 2 colar bones------------------------------------motocross
4. Broken ankle-------------------------------------motocross
5. assorted fingers----------------------------------motocross
6. broken right arm near shoulder socket-------------motocross
7. cracked sternum---------------------------------motocross

and harescrammbles:

8. Cracked and bruised ribs--------------------------harescrammble
9. Broken and jammed right big toe------------------harescrammble


I only race harescrammbles at about 65%, and then only if I feel 100%, otherwise I enjoy a fast trail ride! For instance Rathmans had some really slippery stuff and some really deep ruts; well I can only bend my knees about half of what they should bend, so I go slow or careful enough not to injure them more.

It's a whole lot more fun to make all the races versus watching from the sidelines. Just ride a safe pace where you can go to work on Monday!

Brian Darnell
#412 (Over 40 "A")

Wow, I should consider myself lucky. I've been riding and racing enduros and hare scrambles for 30 years now. 1 concussion when I was 15 from hitting a tree in an enduro and two broken bones in my foot from hitting a tree joy riding in the woods when I was 37. But tons of bruises and sore body parts through the years. I have only practiced on a motocross track and hit the ground seeing stars a few times within a years times. That made me decide to take it easy on motocross tracks to avoid more serious injury as I could see my time quickly approaching.

Robert

Motorcross is way more dangerous I belive

MX- 6 compressed vertebra's
-4 concusions
- fracured wrist
- Two torn rotator cuffs
- Numorous handlebars
- Three helmets
- Much Much more

Hair Scrambles
- 2 concusions
- Numorous Handlebars
- One Helmet
- Numorous cuts and bruses

So I help this helps but not too bad of odds for 16 years of riding.

They each have their dangers. How you go at it makes the biggest difference. I have raced/ridden MX for many years, but I'm new to HS. They are both a blast and very addictive.

If you are green as grass you should just go out and ride to understand the controls and get comfortable just riding. MX track, trails, doesn't matter where, just get familiar with your bike and riding.

MX can lead to jumping, which is a really fun thing. But, it requires lot's of practice to do safely and consistantly. Don't feel you have to jump to have fun on the track. Jumping is where you will most likely have serious injuries. Being a hero for a few seconds in the air isn't worth weeks in plaster(although I highsided out of a turn and seriously dislocated my hip once )

I highly recommend trying a HS race as a first time at racing. HS is a lot more relaxed than MX and it last much longer. Take your time and don't rush it. There will always be races.

One last thought. Any type of racing can/will lead to a lapse in concentration occasionally, usually because you get tired and stop thinking (your muscles take the oxygen your brain needs), it is at these moments that you run into problems, thats when being familiar with the bike pays off in saving it.

You can still have "moments" even when you thought everything was just fine (but that is another subject)

Good Luck!

Be sure to put a scratch on your helmet before riding with it. You never want the first one to be applied while your wearing it.........good Mojo.

Neo- everyone has pretty much layed it out for you, it should be clear to you that both are dangerous.

They both have their respective dangers; MX has jumping, wide tracks, banging bars, jumping, and can't forget jumping.......all of that jumping is risky the odds of getting hurt are high.

In harescrambles you have trees, creek crossings, little jumps, single track and more trees; the biggest danger are the high speeds, but these dangers are managable if you adrenline is not pumping, well OK going slow is not an option.

Leave the bike at home and bring your little girl out tomorrow, you both will have fun.

There are typically concessions are the races. It is about a three hour drive for you so leave around 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning. You have my number.......

IMO they both have different (and some common dangers), but overall I'd say MX is more dangerous. A lot of the risks can be controlled, though, by riding @ tracks that seem to be designed w/ a greater focus on safety and by taking your time in builiding up to big jumps, blitzing the whoops, etc.

The biggest danger w/ hare scrambles seems to be that trees don't move. I crash more in the woods than on the MX track due to "outriding the terrain", but usually I'm going relatively slow when it happens.

I wouldn't let concerns about the dangers steer me away from either one, as both are way too fun, and the risks can be controlled w/ good gear and controlled riding. Take a class or two as well, and you may learn some techniques that'll make you not only faster but safer as well.

If you push the limits of anything in this world trying to reach the next level, you increase your chances of failure.

I agree with Highflier in that it really depends on how you ride. Take your time learning everything you can and buy every piece of safety gear before you push your limits.

I definitely say that supercross is probably more dangerous.
But a milder track than supercross track... compared to racing throught the trees....hmmm
Those pretty close....I would bet..

I will give both a shot...hopefully the adreniline rush won't cloud judgement too much and cause a serious injury to anyone !!

Thanks for the comments, Life is worth living in my book!

On another note:
Can you believe the nice weather today !

Went to cycle gear and got some tech 6 boots....
Couldn't pass up what seemed to be a good deal...I got the older tech 6s that were on sale..due to the new ones recently coming out for sale..~ $70 or so difference...and some other stuff...

Then the little tyke and I went to 3 Palms (without the bike..)
That is a cool place to go riding !!

Good news...I am ready to go riding next week !! Finally lol

Good luck to you all at the Hare Scramble !

Although you specifically asked about MX and HS, I feel I would be remiss if I failed to mention Observed Trials

Observed Trials has a very low injury rate.. Even though trials riders are tackling some pretty big obstacles, the low speed keeps the significant injuries down..

In the past 5 years of all rounds of the "Texas State Series of Observed Trials" we (all State riders included in stats.) have had the following injuries:

-3 or 4 knee injuries
-1 broken leg
-1 separated shoulder
-1 lacerated tongue

Only the broken femur required EMS attention/transport. Not bad for 5 years. Because the injury risk is so low, we do not stage ambulances at trials events, which helps keep costs down.

Observed Trials is a great alternative for the motorcycle enthusiast who is concerned about significant injuries..

TRIALS: Motorcycling's best kept secret!

Wesley
President, Central Texas Trials Association

Yeah, knowing your limits....

I guess finding them first !

I recall someone posted that when he races Hare Scrambles...he is just trail riding at a faster pace so he could go to work on Monday...

I am sure this is not the case for everyone !


But to some extent I guess a rider needs to know his game..right...kinda like a tennis player or pitcher or basketball player...do what they good at, what they know works kinda....?

I guess set your own pace and kinda stick to it...?


Cool posts...maybe embelishment happens sometimes of those yesterday stories...lol

Gonna put some new fluids in that machine to get it ready !!!

Either way you go it has its dangers. Look at the age of guys and girls racing SX/MX and the guys and girls racing harescramble style events. I am not anything bad against mx but I feel you get way more bang for your buck in a harescramble or a desert event. Thats my preference anyway. Both disciplines are very different. Look out for the trees!

In reply to:

---

1. Broken back casing 150 ft triples------------------motocross

---

Hmm... I would like to see some one like Stewart hit a 150 foot triple. That would be pretty neat. You sure that wasnt a 15 foot triple you cased?

Chad-
Only two trips to the hospital in Hare scrambles- actually I'd say 1- one of those was at a MX track in Conroe- so about even I sappose-

I was a roadracer, then got a dirt bike to learn how to slide and be a better roadracer. I then realized how much cheaper dirt racing was, and I haven't been on a road course since.

The amusing thing is that I thought HS racing would be safer, since a 100mph crash pretty much can't happen. Guess the trees have proven me wrong.

Anyway, I know roadracers who have raced for decades with basically no injuries and I know roadracers who each pavement regularly. The key is to increase speed in very small increments and to judge risks intelligently.

One goal I had in roadracing was tomake it to Expert without a notable injury. I ran out of money before that happened, but the idea is the same in HS or MX. Take your time getting fast, ride using your brains, not your balls.

Neo,

Riding motorcycles is like being pregnant.

It's not if you are going to the hospital, ..... It's when!!!!!!!!

This post, no matter what, is going to have so many opinions.

In my opinion and experience i just found that i enjoyed motocross alot more than trails. I hated being limited by the terrain. I felt that all the trees and tight stuff kept me from learning how to ride with style and speed. I rode motocross for bout half a season and went back to the trails, i was ten times faster in the trails after learning body position and power delivery, but i never really noticed i needed it until i got on the motocross track.

I still think that trails are dangerous to race, maybe not so much in just cruisin, but racing def. I remember so many times coming up on something that suprised me, i had seen it every lap of practice they let us have and every lap of the race but i still was suprised becasue the track is so long that you dont remember what is next and you trying to go fast and it just doesnt seem to work for me.

Motocross on the other hand, you get lots of laps in and you can memorize the track and remember where certain parts were that were maybe really messed up or soft, and you can progress with speed as you learn were you are at, your blindness goes away, you learn distances of jumps and rythems and so forth. I never got the hang of HS racing so i guess thats why im all MX, but, i have done both, and they are both fun, but when its my choice i always got MX, and to date, after about 2 years of racing/riding motocross practically every weekend, have only crashed hard twice and i havent broken bone or been really injured yet. (knockin on wood ova hear!)

Check this out http://www.dynoport.com/safety-article.html I am still trying to get accurate details about the fatal practice accident out in Dripping Springs 2 weekends ago, but I understand it was from coming up short on a jump. This discussion could go on forever, but as a dirt bike community it is worthy of discussion to ensure our sport is as safe as possible but still challenging and exciting.

actually Chris-
the actual quote from Richard Herman was
" Riding motorcycles is like being pregnant- you know sooner or later you will be going to the hospital."

After all- he was my hero/ one of...

wow, good arguments all around! neo, i think i actually sold you your boots at cycle gear, good luck!! as for the mx vs. hs debate, im not to sure how one should go about that. the results show for themselves that im guessing people are getting injured more on mx tracks, BUT, the question is how do you feel about it? myself, i feel waaay safer on an mx track than i do in the woods (yet im out now with compressed vertebre and broken ribs, from an mx track). almost all of my injuries have been from on an mx track, but i have to ask myself, if its on an mx track, but its part of the hs course, does that count for both, or do i have to pick if i got hurt on mx or hs? ne hoo, i think every hs racer will agree that riding mx enhances your skills in the woods (dont belive me ask mike kiedrowski). its all in what you push yourself to do, if you want to blast through the trees in 5th gear wfo, you will probably get hurt. if you want to blast over a huge jump 2nd gear wfo, you will probably get hurt. its all about judgement. good luck, and most of all have fun!!!!
p.s. i think i know the jump mr darnell was talking about. its big. uphill triples are not to be fooled around with...especially that one. oh yeah and thanks for all your help mr darnell, dr. santos is awesome!!!!

I think the risk of getting hurt at MX and Hare Scrambles are pretty simular. I've been hurt doing both. but when engageing in any activity there is a risk. Just think you don't need to worry about getting hurt and just have fun. When it's no fun any more, don't do it.

MX:
Broken Ankle
Torn ACL

Off road/ hare scrambles:
Pulled back ligaments
Broken Toe
Broken Arm
Ruptured stomack
2 concousions
multiple stabbings by enviornmental objects. ie cati, trees etc

Skateboards:
broken arm
broken Tib fib
road rash on back
broken nose.

MTB:
Broken clavical
Broken Hand
broken arm
pealed off skin on shins
concussion.

Rugby:
4 concussions
Torn ACL
broken fingers
broken nose
sprained ankles.

Being at the wrong place at the wrong time:
Broken Toe and rippend off toe nail -drunk college
slipped disk - work
concussion - car accident
broken nose - car accident
whiplash - car accident
etc. etc. etc.

I just think it's obvious (sorry) flying thru the air (20/ 30/ 50 feet in the air) bike/ rider weight/ speed ...... and then you miss ... which you will at sometime ...... the enertia generated when you "slam" into a jump face ... is going to cause "serious" injuries .... simple physics, really ....
Every injury (of any serious nature) with my family and friends have been from jumps .... ?????

Motorcycles don't hurt riders, riders hurt riders. Sorry, that was dumb.

I grew up racing all kinds of different things. Four-wheelers at first, then on to bikes. I have ridden for 20 years now and I will be turning 27 this Sunday. I've raced motocross, enduros, hare scrambles, arenacross, supercoss, heck, I've even barrel raced bikes in rodeos. I've raced bmx, go-carts, and even r.c. cars.
I have broken a lot of bones riding, including my back, but my worst injury didn't come from racing at all. It came playing the cruel and deadly game of golf! Before you laugh, please let me explain. You know how they sometimes have ropes on the ground at driving ranges that you can't hit the ball in front of? Well I caught the rope right after I made contact with the ball as the club was upswinging. I hyper-extended my wrist and broke it along with a bone in my hand. No big deal, huh? Well that very bone has a very important tendon stuck to it that goes down to your middle finger and controls all. When the bone broke it tore the tendon about 90% of the way through. Being in college at the time and without insurance, I elected not to have surgery. That probably would have helped. All I can say is that it hurts very badly all the time. I quickly forgot about my back pains after this injury. I now work on a computer all day and that just adds to the wrist pain, but the track ball mouse has definitely changed my life for the better.
So, the moral of this story is that golf sucks!

Well I have a little to share about crashes...

I rode trails with some cool jumps from about 13 to 16 on a CR 80 then xr 100.

Well I had two "big" crashes....

Kinda funny though:

1. Riding on some new / dirt with my trusty dog....(best dog I ever had)...She would run with me as much as she could and never quit !! I would leave her waaayyyyyyy behind...then if I stopped...here she came with her tongue out...lol...she would never quit !!

Anyway, riding on new/loose dirt on a construction site a tall level being built in dirt....I turned the front wheel slightly and my dog....get her name "buddy but" (vowels pronounced like in the word "could")...and buddy but thought I was turning to go down the levee....however I didn't...she hit the front wheel and made me fall I recall I was in 3rd gear...Att that time I had an open face helmet and literally "ate dirt" !!! My friend on a YZ 80 pulled up laughing his ass off at me asking if I was OK...

No serious injuries...

2. Get this...
I was riding along a bayou and road...with several jumps over about a 2 mile stretch...
Well the biggest jump on the trail....probably fly 25 feet in the air if hit pretty hard....was booby trapped !!!!

It was in the country, and the homeowner across the road (from the jump) was burning a pile of trash on top of the hill....lo and behold a "looped" mind you barbed wire ....that I noticed at the last minute...just perfectly connected to my brake lever and stopped the bike in mid air....I flew over the handle bars and land on my back I think....well it knocked the wind out of me and I was grasping for air...

Worst of all....yeah the wind thing is really bad...but also...the homeowners and family was sitting on their porch and laughing there ass off at me the whole time....

I got up...catching my breath and trying to start my bike....then took off....

I was sore after that one...


After all the posts...I realized I had some crash experience too....

Big difference now is that on a yz 250 you hit race speed very very fast !!!



Anyhoo.....

Thanks for all the posts.... I am glad to hear about the fella who has been riding 2 years with no sereious injuries !!!

Got to go....

If anyone willing to meet up with me at a track (around H town) to get "introduced to MX" I would really appreciate it !!


Peace....

Yeah, I like those boots Casey !!

Chad

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just think it's obvious (sorry) flying thru the air (20/ 30/ 50 feet in the air) bike/ rider weight/ speed ...... and then you miss ... which you will at sometime ...... the enertia generated when you "slam" into a jump face ... is going to cause "serious" injuries .... simple physics, really ....
Every injury (of any serious nature) with my family and friends have been from jumps .... ?????
_____________________________________________________________________________
What about trees? They don't seem to move much when you hit them!
_____________________________________________________________________________

There's a volicity difference ...... Yes, if you hit a tree at 80 miles an hour/ head on / certainly.. the same result will happen ...... but if someone can't see the difference between falling from, basically, 3 story's up on a motorcycle and then missing the landing ramp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VS running into a tree in 2 gear gear ????????????????? that was my only point ......

The people that I know that have been seriously hurt, have been hurt jumping. I don't profess to be an expert ... I'm just giving an observation. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other ... just my personal observation.

Good Luck .....

OK...OK....
I already posted my extremely lopsided version of this debate. Ken Ingham had to go and talk about the "other" contact sports. Basketball took the ligaments out of both of my ankles...twice on the right. Football tore up the cartilage and bursa in my right knee. Heliarc welding wasted my right elbow. Car wreck totalled my neck and shoulders for a couple years. Skateboard tore off my toenail! The list goes on.

Two more Bailey boys also enjoy this sport, and are much younger than my youthful self.

Josh: Torn ACL in left knee...Hare Scramble.
Broken wrist (navicular)...MX (National)

Jason: Broken arm Hare Scramble...(Goertz)
Radial Fracture of Tibia...MX (local)
Broken Arm...Wagon incident...Granny's house.

So, do we give up basketball, wagons and Granny's house? Hell no. But we respect all of them. Most of my bike injuries came while pushing myself, possibly beyond my limits.

I don't jump as far as some, and further than others. I go faster through the trees than some, and slower than others. I try to go my own pace, and usually suffer when I don't. I think that's the key. Do what's comfortable, get some proper instructions, wear all your gear, and have fun.

And if you go to the driving range, stay away from the yellow rope!

Chris, to explain my novice status:
I forgot to mention that I didn't ride all through college. I've only been back on a bike for about a year and a half now after a 4 year layoff. I couldn't afford to race while in school, but as soon as I graduated and got a good job I was ready to get right back into it. I got a bike and then quickly took another year off when I demolished my ankle by coming up short on a triple, which was also the very first time I had ever ridden my current YZ250, and the first time I had ridden anything in years. So after the long layoff of growing up and an ankle injury that left me with crutches for 6 months, serious soft tissue damage, tendonitis, tibial tunnel syndrome (carpal tunnel of the ankle), and a lifetime prescription to the strongest arthritis medicine, I changed the way I rode forever. I could no longer ride like I used to, nor could I heal like I used to. I am finally getting back my speed and timing and I am considering the move to intermediate soon. I got 2nd this last weekend at cross creek in the 250 novice class by only about 3 or 4 bike lengths in the 2nd moto. I had won the 1st moto and only needed to beat this one guy to take the overall. He got a better start and I never passed him. It was very disappointing to lose the 2nd moto and the overall, but I can live to ride another day. I was able to show this guy a wheel a few times and come pretty close to passing him, but to make the move work I would have had to lay it out on the line and take a chance. In the old days I would have done whatever to get around, but nowadays I do not ride over my head at any time. I may not win every race with this attitude, but I will finish every race and be back for the next one. I have not, and never will jump the new triple at cross creek, or the triple step-up at liberty hill, and I don't think that any novice rider should. So as soon as I clear the triple at cross creek i will move up to intermediate. Just kidding, I will make the move if I win the Spring Series.

check attachment: ala 1987-ish.

Right on Tom, I think you said it better than anyone.

I may have missed this part of the equation somewhere but what about bike setup? A HS set up bike usually does very poorly when getting "big air" while a well set up mx bike handles big air well and does decently in the trails. In the few HS events I've attended ,I've seen and followed some really poorly set up bikes compounded by poor rider technique. It is little wonder these same people are afraid of an MX track with jumps. After watching their bikes performance I was all "puckered" for them.

I say a well setup bike is confidence inspiring and can handle well almost all situations offroad. A poorly setup bike is a major limiting factor that most people attribute the problems to be rider related.

Most of my major injuries were on my early bikes that I had no idea how to setup. In retrospect, they were POS's mainly due to setup.

Way cool posts !

Man, I played baseball, little basketball, football - running back, lots of tennis and oh yeah....whole lot of partying with friends in weird places...sometimes...lol..during high school...

Don't party so much now...grew out of it and moved on...point being....

I have not broken any bones yet....and after reading all these posts...I wonder if I am due for one...(please God no..)...

Did you all drink milk?..Just wondering....

These posts are good b/c it helps to get a realization and more respect for the rocket..yz250 in my garage...

It is a rocket to me anyway..lol

My bike is all stock ........

Are there major adjustments need for riding regulare MX .. definitely not SX...!

I never heard the statement before about proper MX modifications affecting one's riding so much....

Or does it matter for me..lol ? I am a beginner on the MX track...but experienced on smaller bikes on the trails..


Have a good weekend folks....


Chad

Ground is hard no matter how you look at it. Trees are harder. Which one do you wanna smack?

If you ride, you WILL crash. The best advice I can give is to get quality gear, and try to not ride out of your level. Try both MX and trails to see what you like. Both are a blast. The main thing is NOT to ride above your level. When you get passed by a faster person, its good to try to follow them and learn their lines, but don't get the adrenaline rush and try to pass them back. It will come, just don't force it cuz probability of crashing will go up quite a bit.

Anyway, I'd rather land on the downside of a groomed jump than smack a tree. Trees can take out Cadillacs, think what they can do to 230 lb. bikes. And as someone mentioned above, the DO move. The jump out in front of me all the time.

I think there are 2 kind of riders. Those who have wrecked and those who are going to wreck. I ride both mx/hs,I broke my knee at Rathman's,I was in first gear clipped a tree and put my foot down to try to stop the fall and my handlebar landed on top of my knee, snap. I have crashed on the end of the big camel hump about 100 feet at Cycleranch, Did not break anything, and that is a fourth gear WFO get off. I have had many crash's and alot of injury's. I will not get in to the sky diving and other things that I have done,because that is not the question at hand.Just like the question is driving a car or flying a plane more dangerous.More people die in cars,but you can crash a car and live,crash a plane chances are against you living. One problem I see at Mx tracks is that people see other riders making those jumps and think they can do it when they have not had enough practice.It is always a good Idea to start slow and on little jumps and get used to the terrain. Bike set up is important,And safety gear. If I would have had knee braces on I would most likely have not broke my knee. I do not think that one is more Dangerous than the other. Just try to ride at your level not someone else's. I also would not have broke my knee if I had done what the army tought me in Jump School, that is, DO NOT REACH FOR THE GROUND, TUCK AND ROLL. Hard to remember when getting off a bike. Just an opinion and opinion's they say are like *******'s they all stink,except you own of course. Have fun riding I have for the last forty years.

I heard a rumor about another fatality at the recent Whitney races. Can anyone confirm that? I sure hope not, but I am curious.

I read about a 15 yo kid from California who passed away in TX last week on ThumperTalk...sounded like it happened @ Lake Whitney.

I found this link in reference to this:

http://www.dmxsradio.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1971&PN=2

I don't know how accurate this information is.