During the 2:30 race on saturday, my nephew was leading the overall and was behind a slower over 52 int rider on a KTM. He revved his bike and gave a whoot whoot. The over 52 int rider went down ( not due to contact as there was none). He got up, grabbed my nephews bars and started yelling at him and wouldn't let him go. We have a pretty good idea as to who it is, he said he had very bushy grey eye brows..lol we wish the gopro was recording but it wasn't. The person knows who he is, now see if he mans up to it...

Well I am new to TORN.. My son and I began racing this past year. We are doing absolutely the best we can. We are in the Open Novice class. He went down hard this weekend. They took him off on the board - everything seems to be ok and his possible back fracture is not serious. He was down quite a while.
After reviewing GoPro and based on my own personal experience, there seems to be little in the way of rider etiquette.. By this I mean - faster rider etiquette.. He went down because of a rider pushing from behind.

I know, this is racing - that's just the way it goes - if your your not fast enough. get off the track.. Right? Well..

I disagree..

When I hear the whoop and whisky throttle of those behind me I try to pull off as soon as possible. In my first two years of TORN I have personally been knocked over by five faster riders. Perhaps I am a slow, fat over aged thick browed far who should trade my KTM in for a Harley.. The description above was not me but I have contemplated the same actions several times. My first response has been "OK I am new to this sport and perhaps I have no business being out here.'' But - if you want to grow this sport and you have any expectation of any of us coming back (young and old), and your skill is so completely advanced from ours - you can pass me without checking me into the gulley..

TORN has been an impressively well run and an exceptional Christian atmosphere for our family and friends to enjoy. We are getting faster and practice regularly. We are doing pretty well given our experience and skill. If you don't want true Novice riders - just say the word and we will move on..

Again - I was not the rider that who lectured the young nephew, but I have considered it on at least four other occasions.

As a matter of fact - I commend the over 52 int rider for schooling this self-centered throttle jockey. Perhaps if he practiced a little more he could actually ride in a faster class earlier in the day.

Sorry everyone - my response is coming form a father's stand point after witnessing his son go down hard - apparently from a "love tap" from a different class.
One last rant and then Im done.. What is the criteria for racing in the Open Novice class - Sick and tired of the sandbagging.

Sorry for the soap box TORN family - we have GoPro Too!

Oh and by the way, the medical staff and EMT's at TORN are exceptional -- we can never repay you.

TORN newbie

I understand where your coming from BrentP, but it was stated that there was no contact. The kid did not put the older rider down.

As a matter of fact - I commend the over 52 int rider for schooling this self-centered throttle jockey. Perhaps if he practiced a little more he could actually ride in a faster class earlier in the day

[/quote

Well Brentp, maybe that guy should drop down a class or two.I can tell you this. This was his first torn race as they just moved here from Cali. This is the welcome they got. If that is how you deal with pressure of a faster rider you need to find a new hobby this isnt for you. I can tell you we are not happy about this, you do not grab someones bike and point and yell at them. If he did that to me at my nephews age he would be looking for the emts. I commend my nephew for handeling the way he did. You shouldn't go to race and have to be bullied by a buahy eyebrow old man

Ok guys there is a two way street there, there are some aggressive fast riders and slower riders that won't move, more so on the second, hopefully riderred it was the heat and track cond that caused that and the person is not normally like this.. (As far as brentp goes) sir first off I'm glad your son is ok, but I think you are incorrect on your point of view as to what happend, ( I was the sweeper that was directly behind your boy, and the two boys behind him, the boys were just getting to your son when he went down, and both of those boys stopped and gave up there race to make sure your son was ok and helped the whole time, after removing the bike and making sure he was not in immediate danger from injury, I was talking to him to keep him calm till the medics got to him, I asked him if he remembered what happend? His answer to me was my dad was in front of me and I was trying to get a pass on him an hit the ditch to hard and wrecked, so the answer to that is he was riding aggressive himself and messed up, it's happend to all of us and I'm sorry it happend but its unfair to blam people because your mad about the insadent ...

In my years of riding dirt cycles and bmx bikes when I was a kid every time I made contact with another riders rear tire I always went down. Now this might be cause I suck at both but that's how I remember it.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer and there isn't a good or bad answer to this on going problem of passing on a dirt cycle. Its a dangerous sport at any level and you will always have people that move and people that don't. But I will say if you got up after you went down in front of me and grabbed my bars and started yelling at me you would have the word RENTHAL across you forehead. I wasn't there but I do believe that this kind of action is totally uncalled for.

That's my 2 cents for what's it worth.

Im with BAH.....it is an aggressive sport. i believe most riders are trying to be safe, i have seen very little unsportsman like action at TORN. the guy is lucky that he grabbed a childs bars. obviously the kid was cool about it. grab my bars and were having problems.

Revving your bike and giving a hoot is a courtesy to let a slower rider know you are about to pass.

I guess i wasnt there so i wont pass judgement. happened on the track....keep it on the track.....hope it doesnt happen again.

I too am a 052 int rider: When I and most guys in my class race and am approached by a faster rider I will hold up one finger (index), so you know I am about and a knod or a boot pointing where to go so the pass can be made quick and safe. I another series I ran the novice lites would be a row behind and you knew even if leading that one or 2 were coming. I have actually been thanked by more than one how clear and easy the pass was. We know youre coming but we will let you get to us then move over but we are not going to pull off and wait. The youth need to know to be patient- even if it takes a lil longer. It is a slower riders advantage to let the faster rider by as you may possibly pace them and catch up to your next class position. I couldnt make this race.

Thank you Lonehusky for all of your help Saturday. We have the whole incident on GoPro and I am amazed at how quick and helpful you were. The camera was on the ground so it is impossible to see who was actually there to help. Everyone handled this like professionals and we could not be more pleased. You are also correct - he was riding aggressively (good for him) but it appeared and sounded like he was bumped. He was not on the throttle and you could hear from the engine that he was coasting. You could also hear the bike from behind and it appeared to pass immediately. After watching again, it may be a rider that quickly went by then came back to help.. In any event, other racers and you were there quickly and I know others would have done the same thing.
He did say he was trying to pass me but he is always trying to pass me. I never knew he was behind me and I was shocked to see myself on the video right in front of him for two laps. I knew this day would come..

Printerguy gives great advice and my son and I will talk about how to communicate to riders and let them pass quickly.

Regarding Ridered's thread - if no contact was made and the over 52 int rider just went down I would doubt this would illicit any kind of physical or verbal response. Tough to say - it's your word against his.. Or perhaps there was some dirty racing before he went down.. I will leave it up to these two to deal with it or just leave it on the track like David said..

My frustration comes from my own experiences of getting bumped off the track - all of the yelling and whisky throttling as you come up behind me doesn't help me move over faster. There were times this Sat that my handlebars barely fit between trees - let me get through them and I will move out of the way.

I also agree Ridered - this was not a great welcome for your nephew. Sorry for that. I have never seen or heard of a rider getting off his bike after a crash and confronting another rider in a TORN event (I have at NASCAR and AMA Supercorss - and those guys are professionals). We all lose our tempers and it is never a good thing. I guess Im not sure what the proper response is to being knocked off the track by another rider. When this has happened to me, I try to assume that it wasn't intentional and give them the benefit of the doubt. When it happens in places where it is impossible for me to get out of the way - I get mad.. When it appears to happen to your son and he's carried out on a board - well, maybe the on track lecture would be hard to resist even for me.

There are many things about both of these incidents that I can learn from. I am happy to be racing with ALL of you and I am delighted that my boy is up and running. We love this sport and I could not ask for a more awesome opportunity to spend with my family. My boys will be gone and out of the house in a few years and I will always look back and covet this time.

Peace

BrentP, I was put another thread up asking about your son not realizing you were posting in this one. There were several of us that helped by directing traffic, getting his bike out etc. while lonehusky was attending to him. I didn't catch the name of the boy on the CRF150 but he was the one who came up and told us what was going on. I'm really glad he's ok. I was worried after seeing him lay there for so long.

Glad he's doing ok.

That was my son, Gus Randolph, on the CRF 150. He had been trying to get the bike off the rider & was relieved when the sweeper quickly appeared. I'm always proud of him. He doesn't have a second thought about the race when someone needs help. He's been wondering if the rider is ok.

I've enjoyed racing in TORN now for almost 4 years now and although I used to be a bit intimidated by woods racing (I used to race MX in the late 70s/early 80s) I think I've come a long way and have learned the rules of the game. Having been on both sides of the passing equation many times I can say that if a rider in another class is approaching me from behind I will ALWAYS move over the second I can find a safe place to move over. A couple of times I moved over in bad areas and crashed or was unable to get rolling quickly afterwards but I ALWAYS move over quickly. Heck if I'm tired and a rider in MY CLASS is right on my ass I may move over for him too in order not to be pushed so fast I make a mistake and wreck; in fact I did that for #655 at Maypearl. If it was the last half of the last lap I would try to hang onto my spot but the race was only just over a lap old and I didn't want to get in a wreck with a clearly faster rider on a Bonsai pass or get so tired I made a mistake or completely waste myself and slow to a crawl by trying to hold him off the next 3 laps so I let him pass. Amazingly he got a branch stuck in his wheel/brake lever and I passed him back later and won the race so my actions paid off. All a faster rider has to do is give me a second and some kind of notice if I don't see him and I'll move over but some riders in other classes just don't get it like an O30 AMA KTM rider yesterday who battled over and over with the O52 AMA leader (#698) for half the race for no reason! Sorry BrentP your son got hurt (I fell and got hurt on that insanely rough track too yesterday) but you are wrong about you point of view. If someone communicating with you makes you mad you should take up stamp collecting or something. I've watched my lead disappear over a 2nd place competitor I've worked VERY hard to get some space over while some slower rider plodded on in front of me while I yelled NOT IN YOUR CLASS! NOT IN YOUR CLASS! NOT IN YOUR CLASS! for half a lap when there's really nowhere to pass in tight woody sections. Your notion that if a rider is better he should be able to just go around him easily is just wrong! I got hit by 2 riders yesterday and I'm not mad at either one of them. I would have PREFERRED that they yell at me and/or rev their bikes and I would have moved over quickly. I had no idea they were there because they DIDN'T rev their engines or yell OR I WOULD HAVE MOVED OVER!! Its a form of COMMUNICATION AND IT PREVENTS WRECKS!!!! One of them (#580) came over and apologized which shows what a gentleman he is. I still need to clean his knobby marks off the side of my bike though :-)

I (for one) would like to see 3 things;

1)a standardized statement like (Not in your class) or something else (like revving your bike lot) that tells a slower rider to move over and

2)some sort of penalty for any slower rider who does NOT quickly move over when a faster rider makes the correct statement alerting the slower rider

3)some sort of penalty for any faster rider who doesn't yell the standard statement and while trying to pass knocks down the slower rider

IF a slower rider gets the correct passing statement or revving done to them and doesn't move over and gets knocked over in a pass its their own damn fault.

With all the cameras on people these days it wouldn't be hard to document if some slower held up a faster rider who did the right things or of a faster rider who didn't give a slower rider a chance to move over and knocked him down. Lets make this a rule and try to eliminate the problem, danger and misunderstandings.

that 698 am. is one of the nicest people and racers you will meet.....so the other guy was just lucky lol

580 am is still talking about that today. He felt so bad. No way he would intentionally take someone out. That was the first thing he said when he finished was I gotta find that guy and apologize......

Proud of my camp mates! Great sportsman all around!

Personally I think it's sad how many of the young kids I catch that get right out of the way compared to the older guys who never move, do wanna say thanks to everyone this weekend I was in the open amateur class and didn't have any problems with anyone, no hold ups.

I've been in races where you catch some one that Won't move and then everyone behind you catches up or the guy in front is pulling away its highly highly frustrating no one wants to lose a race because of some one that's not even in your class.

Can't wait for the next race hopefully not as slick and dry as this one!

Honestly I think he was upset because he was about to get lapped by a YZ125.... Moral of the story, you shouldn't grab someones bars and start yelling at them because you went down without contact. Next time the person might put a Protaper or Renthal stamp on your forehead, Thanks BAH..

P.S BrentP as far as schooling goes, my nephew got the overall win and lapped the guy so who got schooled????

That was my line!

Yes it was and I took it... haha

I take my nephew racing in another series, if that happened in the other series I would come unglued but I also think my series would. I hope something gets said to the bushy eyebrow man in a serious eye to eye face to face manner.

Well...the best manner to deal with bad conduct is to report it to Cross or one of the torn gang.

Hey Rad, im with ya but gotta say that more rules and more penalties might work.....but will be a headache and take fun away. i ride intermediate in torn and B in torcs and never have problems with riders moving. i think its more of an education and culture thing. teach the young and new riders track etiquette and let violators learn the hard way...on the track.

Sounds like everyone thinks they are Rocky here. If your faster then find a way around with out all the DRAMA.

I raced the O-38 am for several years. Now I ride the O-45 int. Theirs one thing you learn riding at that race time is how to get out of the way. The pro expert riders in the sportsman class are very patient with the slower riders unless you continue to block them and then they will give you a lesson of hard knocks. You don't really have to slow down for the faster rider. Just quit trying to stay if front of them. Just give them a little room to go around. It doesn't take much for the faster rider to get by and it wont effect your race at all, unless they have to force the pass then you may loose time picking yourself up. On the other hand the faster rider has to keep in mind that they need to give inexperienced rider a little room when passing. They may not have the skill to hold their line or to see the same passing zones. Just my 1/2 cent on the subject. (putting your hands on another rider is unacceptable in my opinion)

Here's some video of my first lap at Corsicana http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY1Vp3SOhw8
Go to minute 13:00 when I come up on a couple guys in another class. You'll see proper etiquette by the guys I'm coming up on. I only have to rev once or twice and they hear me and move over.

What I've come to understand is not everyone can hear me. Maybe because I'm on a 2 stroke. I learned that when I came up on guy I know at Legacy Farms in the woods and I was revving and yelling and it took longer than I would have liked for him to realize I was there. Afterward he said he never heard me. I certainly believe him because he's a good guy and knows I usually catch at some point during the race. That incident helped me realize that not every guy who doesn't immediately move over is doing it on purpose.

I've had a race or two where I passed the entire class in front of me and for the most part even the guys leading their own race moved over pretty quick. I've had a few notable cases where a guy just wouldn't move over and in those cases I eventually have to force the issue, but I'd never try to take someone out. It's not like I want to crash either.

I'm sure this is probably a bigger issue in the amateur/novice race groups because an intermediate class is mixed in with them and a lot of the racers are inexperienced, hyped up and in race mode. There's never going to be a perfect answer when faster riders from one class are coming up on slower riders from another, but if all the new racers starting out are educated and reminded of this issue things should go fairly smooth for the most part.

This is my first year racing cross country so I've sure had to learn the ropes. This year I'm the passer and next year when I move up I'll have to learn how to pull over for faster guys coming through.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Hey Soul.....you have it spot on brotha! The kawi you passed at 13 was a good rider that I battled with most of the race. As a matter of fact....I am the next guy that you pass at 13:40! We had no issues either. I didn't really slow much, just moved over and you even yelled "thanks". Rider courtesy at its best.

There are two sides to this story and we have only heard one side of it. The last I checked, none of us are making a living out of racing. I know we all understand track etiquette. In the heat of the race, it may be difficult to measure what is adequate warning when you come up on a slower rider. In any case, is it ever OK to run into the back of slower rider or push them off the track? We all have to get up the next day and go to work or school. No one wins if someone gets hurt because they can't get out of the way fast enough. Let cooler heads dictate our actions. We are doing this for fun. Take a deep breath everybody.

YEA! How dare y'all pull up behind me when I'm sweeping rev your engines yell behind you and expect me to pull over!! Can't y'all see that orange vest!! I'm trying to Cruz around and y'all want me to move, bunch of ungrateful racers!!!!
JK ! Whew I fell better now..

I'm sorry Roy.........but dang I can only go that slow for a little while. Next time just move!

ya'll this is nitro; "ya'll otta be on Opra"!I AINT NEVER !! Make it simple: when I come up on a slower racer I always give them 3 chances , I hawler "NITRO" to let them know im there, that should be enough! if a good spot to get over appears and they DONT get over ,I hawler a 2nd time to let them know they messed up . if you ever hear me a 3rd time, that means it's about to get ugly!!! if you really know me, you would know that's not how I like to roll. so just keep your head in the race and remember the race is not just in front, but behind too! I've ben racing 40 years and I've heard it all. it's a very dangerious sport, and you know what say "IF your scared, GO TO CHURCH" I go to church and I ain't scared . (-:

Nitro - Ive heard you come up on me in practice a few times over the past two years.. Honestly, it was all I could do to get out of your way in time.. The third "holler" was often in the same set of trees and only seconds after your first "holler"... I will gladly drive my moto into the ditch or off a cliff to get out of your way because quite frankly - I am scared of you and I fear the "love tap" - you are "Mad Max" incarnate.
You da man - deep respect.

I think if I ever actually get to pass anyone I'm going to scream Nitro every time.

Me too

During PRACTICE no one should be doing you that way.....I've been hearing of several having issues with 'aggressive" riders during practice. Being aggressive and taking someone out isn't what makes a good rider......During Practice

I have been held up by slower riders and I have held up faster riders. (Sorry soulvillemusic. It really wasn't intentional.) Either way I don't think I have ever really lost or won a race because of it. I know at the time it seems like you are losing hours while they are holding you up, but most of the time you will get a clearing soon enough to get around. Now if they try to block you in the clearing then game on. lol.

Just remember if you are in the woods and you or the person who you are trying to get round don't feel like you have enough room to safely pull over, then don't. There is no reason to put your self into a tree to let somebody by. You both paid the same money to be on the track.

Now that is funny. I made the mistake of wearing a bright orange hoodie in a Febuary race one year and everyone thought I was a sweeper. It was a very interesting race to say the least. I would not recomend it to anyone.

There is no real difference in Race pace and practice pace after the first lap of practice. The only thing different would be the scoring, I believe you should push just as hard and be just as aggressive in practice so you know what can and cant be done in the race.

Slower riders need to understand the moving out of the way after being addressed with a shout or panic rev, because the faster are coming through either way. The faster riders also have to be aware of passing areas and give a few warnings before plowing through the slower riders.

I do not believe people are taking people out on purpose, there is and always will be contact, as Nitro said, there is a race going on behind you as well and if you are not in it...Move

Everyone does pay the same entry fees, as stated above, some just choose to see the same scenery at a faster pace.

I've had both ends of the spectrum, slower guy that were good and bad at passing them and fast guys good and bad, the slow guys I've had to force passes on because they want to race everyone on the track not just there class, and fast guys that pull up on you and try to push you into a tree without warning you, and they all react differently, slower guys get mad when you force the pass and faster guys act surprised when you can run fast enough long enough to catch them and push them in a corner, but hey this is racing and ya gotta blow it off and look towards the next one..

brentp I'm sure your mistaken about practis: most people want me out of 'Their' way being that I stop a lot to look at stuff . ore I go back and do certain lines over and over to see witch works best for me .unless I was just kidding around w\you , more than likely it was in the race. so to Liss's post, its ok I wouldn't even hauled at you in practice sweet hart.

I've been on both ends of this also, if someone is pressuring me I'll move over when when I think I can, and I've come up on slower riders that move over quickly and some that just refuse to move over!
I think the Biggest thing to remember is be safe !!! for yourself and the other guy!
And the faster more experienced rider see lines and places that someone could take , that a slower less experienced rider just doesn't see!

Well I get out of everyone's way.....even my own class. I do not stop, the first time I have actually came to a complete stop while letting others pass was this race. Little did I know I was moving for 4 sweepers........geeze.
As some of you have stated on the 3 chances rule..........you get one, maybe two free passes with me. I will move over, point, take the bad line so you can have the good one ONCE take it or your going to wait till the trail opens up. So pay attention.
During practice it may take a minute, I usually ride in the back of the other women so If I see they have no where to go I may block for a bit so you don't take them out. Not everyone on the track has been riding for a long time.
Now I understand that you need to run race pace during practice to get a feel of how much you can push it. That's why I do more than just the turtle run. But there is no excuse for knocking riders out of your way. Maybe those of you should take this chance during practice to practice getting by without contact.
Nitro I know your not going to "holler" at me. It won't do you any good. I'll move when I get ready.lol
Some of you need to carefully watch the mini's and ladies during our race. IF there is contact while racing it's on accident or it's a new rider who isn't used to passing. AND I can promise you some of them are faster than most amateurs.
At NO TIME is it ok to grab someone or their bike. If you believe you have been wronged there are other ways to handle it. Grab one of my kids and you may get more that you reckoned for. Especially that girl........she can handle herself on the track.

So now that you have read all of that the point to my story is........learn to pass and be passed. You don't think about practicing passing but it will help

To honestly think everyone clearly understands what is being hollered is ridiculous. Often there is more than one engine being revved and the sounds of some 4stks cover a lot of distance. And some even wear ear plugs. So the hollering is very indistinct and many times just not heard. As another mentioned, the Rocky's who let their egos(unjustified) take over need to adjust their attitude. This is local yokel racing, nothing more.

OH Yea, on a practice related topic , People stoping in the MIDDLE of the track, to talk or look around , somebody is gona get hit!

First, i am glad everyone was ok! Second, as one of the most inexperienced riders on the track here is my take.. i am there for fun and good friends period.. i get out of everyones way, hell i will pull over if coming into the woods and let the pack go!! If in the woods i move as soon as i can. My only goal is to finish the race!!! In two races i have had no issues and alot of thumbs up, or thank you yelled... I ride within my means, no more as i will get hurt, or hurt others.. it has been thirty years since i have been on the dirt, but if someone ever takes me out intentionally it would be a very ugly pit after the race...lol

I'm taken mike p out next race! Ugly pit mosh! Lol

Woohoo! Dinner, and a movie Roy? Lmao

Hey Nitro, did you hear me yelling "Nitro!" at you in the woods at Maypearl when you rode your son's class and I came up on you? haha Sorry...I couldn't help myself.

Yup Mike_P is a marked man now!

Lol...go easy on me

Watch that BAH guy, he sandbagging. He should be in the pro class and likea to run us slower guys over

You guys are good people and I love this sport! I do need your prayers. We have had a change of late in Anderson's condition. After the wreck on Saturday we watched him closely and felt confident we could take him to Hillcrest where we live in Waco rather than a flight to Dallas. Anderson seemed fine on the way home.
At one point, we stopped for gas and a soda. I asked Anderson to just stay in the car and relax. We all got out to get some Subway and drinks and in walks Anderson. We called him Lazarus. He was sore but otherwise mobile.
We got up Sunday morning and raced Waco Eagles MX. Anderson was a little off his pace but felt fine.
Football practice on Monday.
Intense back pain on Tuesday.
Doctor and X-Rays today.
Fractured spine....
We go in for an MRI this Saturday to look more closely.
Oh boy..
He is up and moving slowly. Not sure what is next other than rest and zero contact sports or moto.
Thanks again everyone for your patience with my first post and prayers for Anderson. Hope we can get back out there soon.
Peace

WOW! Hate to hear that news. Prayers sent his way.

DEAD HORSE. DEAD HORSE. DEAD HORSE.