Oklahoma may have lost the only full-time indoor tt and flattrack in the state.VERY SAD DAY IN RACING when nobody shows up locally to support an awsome facility.There was a couple of guys that came from Waco on pro bikes.A few karts from out of town,A good group of clone karts,and a few new,and a few veteran quads.George was nice enough to giVe everyone a night of practice,Everyone had a blast that was there.
George,thanks for all you have done for the sport,hope to hear from ya soon.
RYAN,RDS

I wish more would have showed up, we are no done. The rest of the season is canceled.

That is a very sad thing to hear!!! this was my most favorite track of all of them!!! I looked forward monthly to the time when Ada would roll around. I dont care if i came in first or last i would still have made the trip for this awesome track just as we did tonight!!!! Sorry to hear the extremely bad news, thank you very much for letting us practice that much tonight, it really gave Micheal on the #23 quad a lot of very good experience(this was his very first night on a track and the bike). Probably even saved him from wrecking later, again, very sorry to hear the seasons cancelled!!!!

this was a very good track as well as a facility. Its very sad that a good track like this is going to have to shut down due to lack of participation.This is by far one of my favorite tracks and im very dissipointed that track locals wont even show for a race.He put alot of work in making the track how we wanted it. I want to thank George alot hes a very nice guy. And he does also alot for our blue motor class and it has come along way thanks to him. the class has grown alot there and is very exciting to participate in as well as to watch. This Track is very great and i hope its not gone forever.
thanks for everything george, from Handboys racing

My opinion for what it is worth.We made our first tow to OSP and it is a very nice track and barn.George and his buddy were as nice as could be and I'm sorry that they cannot draw a field of racers.

But you can't blame the racers,thier racers they go were they want.There is a reason the people putting on the show are called promotors.Its up to them to draw a front and back gate admission.You have to put on a show to have a show your gonna need racers.If you can't draw the racers the problem has to be with the promotor.Maybe you have to give a little at first,or door prizes,special pricing whatever.Advertise get the word out everywhere.
Don't blame the racers I drove 100 miles each way thinking I was going to a race,the guys from waco drove alot further than that.

Since I started this,alot of the racers have been bashing Bob and his OK corral.I don't agree with everything I've seen happen at Harrah.But he puts in alot of effort,is active on the forums and draws a decent amount of racers.I personally believe he drops the ball only on the length of his show,anything more than 3 hrs and the fan loses interest and doesn't come back.

This all my unsolitied .02 cents

Bob Munday

I MADE THE EXACT SAME POINT ABOUT A MONTH AGO. IT FELL ON DEFF EARS. I TOO AM SORRY IT DIDN'T WORK OUT. IT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT TO MAKE A RACE SERIES WORK. I DIDN'T SEE THAT EFFORT. I HAVE SEEN OTHER TRACKS DO THE SAME THING WITH THE SAME RESULTS. YOU HAVE TO GIVE RACERS A REASON TO WANT TO RACE YOUR EVENT, NOT TRY TO FORCE THEM TO ATTEND. SOMETIMES THAT MEANS OPERATING AT A LOSS UNTILL YOU HAVE A FOLLOWING OR DOING SOMTHING SPECIAL TO MAKE YOUR SERIES STAND OUT. A WISE PROMOTER NEVER FORGETS THIS. JUST MY OPINION

if a fan loses intrest in 3 hours they dont need to b a fan most good races are a all day event

Which is why we don't have repeat fans that are not connected closely to a particapant.When you have a 7 pm start it better not be an all day event. We need every fan and next time they need to bring more people.I remember your post Willie.

A Promoters job is to simply put fans in the the grandstands. We as Racers all new what George was doing and Chose not to go race there, for whatever reason, So the fact that OSP is shutting down is directly the fault of the racers who chose not to participate. He treated everyone fairly and responded to our requests about changes to the track. I was there Saturday and that was the coolest track I,ve been on indoors.
Thanks for your efforts George, we appreciate it and look forward to racing with you again in the future.

Regards,
Bobby Lowry
( ODKRA )

A three hour show is ideal for professional events. What we all are doing with the Grass Roots Sportsman Indoor racing in Oklahoma is a Points Series one, and it is amateur and semi-pro second. Those types of events are not intended to sell tickets, or for entertainment of a crowd, but more for the entertainment of the participants and their Pit Crew, friends and familes. Friend of mine once named them Inlaw Shows versus Outlaw Shows. Some refer to them as Back Gate events vrs Front Gate events.

Biggest problem we all have had for the past couple of seasons is low rider counts.

WHAT ABOUT A COMBINED SERIES OR CIRCUIT THAT INCLUDED 2 OR 3 DESIGNATED RACES FROM EACH LOCAL OKLA. SERIES? THAT MIGHT ENCOURAGE RIDERS TO LEAVE THEIR OWN BACKYARD. WE COULD HAVE A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP WITH SOME TYPE OF BIG EVENT AT THE END OF THE YEAR. OF COURSE THE PROMOTERS WOULD HAVE TO COME TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS WORK. DON'T KNOW IF THAT WOULD FLY? MIGHT EVEN BE ABLE TO BRING IN SOME OF THE CAR TRACKS AS SOME OF THEM HAVE EXPRESSED INTEREST IN RUNNING AN EVENT OR TWO. IT WOULD BE GREAT TO RUN A BIG TRACK NOW & THEN WITHOUT GOING TO TEXAS TO RACE.

Yeah I know Bob about the back door event.Although I'm there so my kid can race I do enjoy watching the Pros and truely some of the better attended amateurs classes too.I was thinking more fans,more money= more pros.But I'm just a rookie and you been at this along time.

Bob

I would be down for the big points races that include a bunch of different tracks around the area but all in the same "points pot" i guess you would call it!!!! That might force racers to just atleast try a track out just once, they might even find out its there favorite such as ada did for me!!! On top of this have a big pot of money at the end, have all of the tracks throw in a couple hundred for the points leader at the end of the year!! you start talkin big purse prizes, and pay out down the list to maybe 5th or 6th, if you make enough maybe even 10th place so that the middle class pros dont just quiet half way through and I bet you would start seeing a lot more turnout!!!! and include every track that would want to be part of it, no matter how big, small, crappy, or awesome!!!!!

The Bottom line is we do have alot of good tracks in Oklahoma, I think in order for a track to make it you need riders running your points series so that they keep coming to every race, Tristan is running for points at Harrah and Kelleyville currenly and planning to run MWEDT series and we will definitly be running Red Dirt Speedway in Meeker this spring. There is a large group of us that hang out and run these same races and from talking to them whether it be finances or just needing a few weekends to take care of other things in life its just not possible to run every series.

RACED AN EVENT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AT KELLYVILLE THAT HAD 15 OR 16 OPEN AM
MC RIDERS 20 OR SO PRO MC RIDERS & A TON OF QUAD RIDERS. THE RIDERS ARE OUT THERE. THE THING IS, HOW TO GET THEM TO RACE. IF THE RIDER COUNT GOES UP SO DOES THE FAN COUNT. ONE SOLUTION MIGHT BE TO PUSH MORE RIDERS UP TO THE PRO CLASS. THIS WOULD INCREASE THE PRO PAYOUT & MAKE ROOM FOR NEW RIDERS IN THE AM EVENTS. THIS IN TURN WOULD BRING IN MORE PRO RIDERS BECAUSE OF THE INCREASED PURSE. SOME OF THE PRO RIDERS USE THE BACK DOOR SERIES TO PREPARE FOR OTHER DEALS BUT IF THE PAYOUT GOES UP THAT WILL CHANGE. ANOTHER OPTION MIGHT BE A YEAR END POINTS FUND. IF THE RIDERS SEE A BIG PAYOUT AT THE END OF THE SERIES THEY MIGHT BE MORE INCLINED TO FINISH THE SERIES. JUST MY OPINION.

I have a question can someone answer it then I will make my spill.

I see AMA rules ect. but when I go to AMA web site I can not find that flat track quads and karts are apart of that organization. Are they? Are they NOT? I see ATV Moto.

Bigger question is what rules each individual track/promoter uses. Tulsa Speedway used to have a totally different rule for Sprint Car Chassis that kept all their vehicles at home, as they were illegal in USAC and other Sanctions.

Keep in mind the terms Flattrack and Quad, which seem to be popular in Oklahoma and Texas, are actually Dirt Track and ATV in the AMA Rule Books.
http://www.ama-cycle.org/rulebooks/

http://www.ama-cycle.org/rulebooks/2010/AMARacing_rulebook10_Web_TR.pdf
AMA Track Racing Only Rule Book Includes the proper name Dirt Track which some in this part of the country call Flattrack.

The rules for Karts for the AMP Series are at: http://karts.ampown.com

DON'T BELEIVE THAT THE RULES ARE SO FAR APART THAT A COMPROMISE CAN'T BE REACHED. LOOK AT IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE THE RULES UNIFORM. IT WILL REQUIRE THE PROMOTERS TO COME TOGETHER. MIGHT NOT BE EASY BUT IT CAN BE DONE.
WHY NOT TAKE A POLL OF THE RACERS TO SEE HOW THEY FEEL? A STANDARDIZED SET OF RULES MIGHT SOLVE SOME OF THE DISPUTES THAT OCCUR FROM TIME TO TIME. RACERS IF YOU ARE OUT THERE AND I KNOW YOU ARE PLEASE WEIGH IN. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

If one has a few months to compile written rules, then write your own. Much eaiser to use existing rules with admendants to those rules.

Slickwillieracing

That is what I said on the 2010 Rules topic, you should go read it.

Again, the flat track community needs to come together and figure out what it will take to make Oklahoma be the place to race. After that happens other states will want to join your organization and you will have the best without all the bureaucracy that comes with big organizations. You want to be the best racer, race against the best, race at the best tracks and be affiliated with the best organizations!

Whats the problem set it aside and get it done!

BOB: YOU OPENED UP THE RULES DISCUSSION NOT ME. I WAS TRYING TO PROMOTE AN IDEA THAT I BELEIVE MIGHT HELP BRING UP THE RIDER COUNT. WE ALL HAVE A STAKE IN THE HEALTH OF FLATTRACK RACING IN OKLA. ISN'T THAT WHAT THIS FORUM IS ALL ABOUT, OPINIONS & IDEAS? IF YOU & THE OTHER PROMOTERS CAN'T AGREE ON A COMMON SET OF RULES THEN WHY NOT AGREE TO USE USE THE RULES THAT ARE IN FORCE AT EACH TRACK. DOESN'T MEAN THAT A STATEWIDE SERIES WON'T WORK.

Believe AMP had the first written rules for our Indoor series in 1985. Not sure about the others. Getting all to agree to rules has been harder than not scheculing on top of eachothers dates. May want to start with Emmett Hahn and the Tulsa Shoot Out for the ATV Rules.

Biggest problem with writing ones own rules is attorneys.

SAW YOUR POST QUADRACER. LOOKS LIKE BOTH TOPICS ARE HEADED TO THE SAME PLACE. I THINK BOTH OF US ARE LOOKING AT IDEAS THAT WOULD HELP & GROW FLATTRACK RACING. I SEE A LOT OF COMPLAINING ABOUT LOW RIDER COUNT FROM PROMOTERS BUT THEY SEEM TO RESIST ANY IDEA THAT WOULD REQUIRE THEM TO CHANGE ANYTHING IN THEIR PROGRAM. SOMETIMES I THINK THEY FORGET THAT THE RIDERS ARE THE SHOW.

slickwillie, your ideas of moving more amatures to the pro class would be better for the pro purse but less amatures means less money for the promoters. they call these races back gate nationals for a reason, the promoters make the largest amount of their money off the backs of amature racers. the promoter isnt to concerned with spectators since most of the profit is made on the back gate.

for 2 years i have raced at little river raceway in nashoba. a very fast high bank 1/4 mile. i love this track but one really cool thing about this race track is 100% of the back gate goes to the purse. your $25.00 pit pass is also your entry fee and all your pit crews $25.00 pit passes also goes to the purse. the amature class entry fee also goes to the pro purse which allows the pro purse to be even larger. the trophies for the amature class are paid for out of the purse. amatures still get there trophy and the pro purse is large which is the ultimate reason to get amature racers to move up to the pro class.
i know alot of people will whine about a $25.00 pit pass but there isnt anyone holding a gun to your head to go in the pits. if you dont want to pay the pit pass fee then buy the cheap spectator ticket and grab a seat in the stands and watch the races. this track is out in the middle of no where and they have great crowds.
but i dont see any local promoters trying this.

Lonnie

WIllie,I have been racing for 22 years.I am a racer,not just a promoter.I did not build this track to get rich on.Matter a fact I lost Money all year last year and will gladly do it again simply for the love of the sport.You are quite active on here and are always quick to dog the promoters and tracks,yet you dont run the series.I know you havent been runnin OSP nor did you run my track last year.All Im sayin is dont knock it till you try it!
Nashoba is a car track and while I heard it was super fast,I have not made it down there.The problem with it is there is only a pro and an amature class,nothing for youth riders,karts,or motorcycles
Lonnie,I guaranteed 125% payback for pro classes,wich equivalated to what the PRO RIDER spent to come in the gate as well as full entry feen in the pot.So dont say you dont see any tracks "DOIN THIS".On top of that we held a dash for cash for quads or karts at every event,sometimes both!

Ryan-RDS

Ryan, as per my posting. nashoba puts 100% of the back gate towards the purse. this includes all amature and pro rider pit pass fee towards the purse plus all their pit crew. making the purse alot larger than 100% when you factor in all entries plus their crew. so unless your doing this kind of payback to the pro class where 100% of the back gate including all pro and amature riders and their crews pit fee going to the pro purse i guess my statement of i dont see any track doing this is 100% correct.
yes nashoba is a car track, there are plenty of race tracks that are go kart only, or smaller tracks that are better suited for karts and youth riders. i personally dont think youth riders need to be on tracks larger than an 1/8 mile.

Lonnie

LONNIE: THANKS FOR THE INPUT

RYAN: I AM A RACER & I DID RACE A SERIES IN 2009 JUST NOT YOURS. I DON'T HAVE ANY ANAMOSITY TOWARD YOU OR ANY OF THE PROMOTERS.WE NEED PROMOTERS AS MUCH AS WE NEED RACERS. I DO HAVE IDEAS AND I INTEND TO KEEP THROWING THEM OUT THERE. SORRY IF THAT RUBS YOU YHE WRONG WAY BUT THAT'S LIFE. THANKS FOR MAKING MY POINT ABOUT OPERATING AT A LOSS UNTIL YOU ESTABLISH YOUR PLACE IN FLATTRACK.

Most everyone involved in Dirt Track operates at a loss at some point.

95% of the gate fees, spectator tickets, Amateur Entry Fees go towards the cost of the production, labor, EMTs, insurance, trophy costs and rental fees for our events. That is with 100 entries, over that the profit does increase. We have been fortunate to of never lost money, but most nights with 100 or less entries there is less than $300 net profit from the events.

Majority of entries at many levels of motorsports have fallen off due to the economy, high cost of fuel, lay-offs, and other factors. Even the major motorcycle/ATV manufactures have cut their contingency programs drastically this season, which is a reflection of the condition of their sales performance.

Not complaining about lower rider counts, it is what it is. Seems to be around a 35%=40% reduction across the board with most forms of motorcycle and quad racing, even the high end Road Racing is seeing around that same decrease in rider counts over this past season. That 30% used to be the profit, which helped move the business forward, allowed for additional advertising, equipment purchases, investment in additional staff and other improvements. Without it, things are stagment and will remain the same or decline, unless one cuts costs and staff/payroll.

On the flip side are spectator ticket sales. Those too seem to be around 40% off from the past three seasons. Pricing has remained the same for most of the motorycle/ATV racing events in this area. One spends $2,500 advertising the event and may see a return of up to that amount come back in, however that is a wash at best, and because most of us that rent buildings, to produce the events in, do not own our own concession stand, additional people through the gate do not add to the bottom line for the promoter.

We use Free Tickets, and have since 1982, to invite new fans to come try it out, with little or mixed results.

Again, we are just going through another time where jobs, the economy, price of fuel and other outside forces are dictating to many in a spefic economic group as to how and where they can spend their racing and entertainment dollars. Apparently in the small community of Ada, there were a larger group of people in that economic group that were hurt badly by the recent economic turn down. With larger cities such as OKC and Tulsa and Dallas one does not see the effect as quickly and deeply as in a smaller town. However, the entries for a few major events seem to be having short falls recently as well. So it appears no one or location is excempt from the economy factors.

Lonnie I wish I could,but Nashoba can do this simply because if no quads show up,it doent matter.The tickets are sold at the front gate and the crowd is there to watch the cars.The quads are just a side show.We did this quite a few times at Brill motor speedway and he did the same thing.ALL the drivers and pit crews pit pass went in the pot for the quads.We had a ball and I look forward to making it down there.I like many racers have kids that race as well,and I am trying to make it affordable for the entire family to come watch and race.
And Willie,I know you are a racer and where you raced last year.And my facility has been built by racers of quads motorcycles,and karts.With input from a lot of riders,wether they run my track or not.I do appreciate the ideas and opinions,whether I agree or disagree with them.with out rider input and feedback,I would not have a track.

Ryan-RDS

RYAN: ENOUGH SAID! WE ARE CONSIDERING RUNNING YOUR TT SERIES THIS SUMMER IF WE CAN WORK OUT THE LOGISTICS. WILLIAM WANTS TO MAKE A RUN AT A 2ND OCCRA CHAMPIONSHIP SO WE WILL TRY TO WORK AROUND THAT. MIKE/SLICK WILLIE RACING