** EDIT - This thread is a copy of a totally trashed thread from an earlier date. I didn't want to delete it or leave it trashed, so I copied what was left here. Thanks for reading it....I consider it worth a look....Bobby -- 01-04-01 **


Ya'know, the ATV user groups dominate the total of offroad users by at least 2 to 1...maybe 3 to 1...over any other group in Texas. Yet, they are the least organized and most difficult to find info about. So, I'd appreciate any contacts anyone can supply!

This is not a fault to them. The reason is that most are not associated with any club, but are instead weekend warriors who ride in small groups of friends and family. Look on any street in the burbs anywhere in Texas and you'll see an ATV in 1 out of every 10 garages. As a political force, the ATVs have power, they just don't know it!

I personally like to take my dirtbike out on trailrides with my ATV buds from work. We hit the San Jacinto River and Spring Creek and ride illegally...doing our best to avoid the Lawman and we keep each other informed about where ol'man Law has been hangin' out last weekend and ticketing riders as they go by. I'm sure it's like that all over the state.

Some time back in '99 I had an idea to create a web-based inventory of all the trail systems in Texas. Hell man, they're illegal anyway, so why not? Over 98% of Texas is privately owned, so I figured by finding out which landowners allow riders to pass on their land while river riding, we could open up more places to more guys.

The kicker here is that Texas Parks and Wildlife is very interested in this Trails Inventory idea too....but, they can't fund the project if it includes illegal trails....legally, it promotes trespassing...blah,blah,blah.....but, if the river riders and bayou riders and woods riders in Texas think it's a wothwhile project, I'll build the database.

With the ATV riders united in Texas, we could change the old outdated Texas Waterways Act to include a public right of way riding on the banks of Texas Waterways. This is a delicate issue that affects a huge number of Texans. You're comments are welcome.

There's a couple of others working on this already, just not such a grand scale. Expect to see their hard work listed here soon...they've joined the TON too! Let me know your thoughts on this....anybody....pro and con....thanks....BB.

Ya'know what happens when you mix a semi-intellegent with a smartass? Ya' get a guy like me!

I just came up with a name for this project!

The Texas Illegal Trails System - - T.I.T.S. for short - - it'll be huge!

We can advertise it as the Huge TITS Project! That'll get their attention in Austin, huh? So what if they find it offensive. I find having the local yocal town sherry writing my buds tickets for riding on the river offensive too. Any way....I feel I could offer a hand supporting a big TITS project!

Just my two cents....now back to work....BB.

Trust me on this, I'm an expert - "Life is hard, but it's harder when you're stupid!"....Bobby

** NOTE **
Tim Goudy posted at this point.....it was deleted by another Moderator.....bad thing to do....Mods do not delete each others posts.....let him delete his own or ask an Admin to do it.....we live and learn, eh?....chalk it up to growing pains.
** END NOTE **

Tim, I'm glad you bumped this thread back up top. {:o)

I always wanted to rattle the bars on my cage and get the attention of the Austin crowd with something like this.

The huge Texas Illegal Trails System database. Nothin' like a huge TITS project to get guys motivated.....

BTW - Tim - I didn't just think of this name. I had the idea for the TITS project before the TON project. Back in the summer of '99. To be honest, the TON is just a stepping stone to the incredibly huge TITS website. The TON software we're testing now is what we are hoping to use on the TITS database project. We will have over 4500 USGS topo maps online with a board for posting info on any one that has trails mapping going on. Cool, huh?

Trust me, you don't want to Moderate that one......we will be offering free electro-shock therapy......

** NOTE**
At this point all kinds of off topic posts went in...later they were deleted.
**END NOTE **

Sorry if this sounds like the hardass routine, but I don't like this jokester stuff on this particular thread.

If you had any real idea of how serious this idea is, you wouldn't joke. I stand a 90% chance of being incarcerated for doing this. At a minimum, I will be prosecuted for promoting trespassing and inciting disobedience against Texas trespassing laws. So, excuse me if I decide to delete these comical posts later.

This Texas Trails Inventory has the full support of Texas Parks and Wildlife. This website was built partly due to comments made to me by Andy Goildblum, Director of the TPWD Recreational Trails Fund....which just made a public notice about the 44 grants for 2.2 million dollars for year 2001. Don't laugh yet, boys, but I hope to get some of that money in the future for this project under an educational services grant.

If TPWD wants me to build a website about all the offroad clubs and recreational areas and trailriding areas in Texas, and by doing that will give us all more Federal Funding to use to promote what we all love to do, then I'll sit here rattlin' off emails every evening and weekend 'til hell freezes over. So, funny as the name is....the business of this website and these ideas are going to affect YOUR children and their children. And I plan on making all of you a part of history.

Now, I'm down off my soapbox......and back to work.....just my opinion folks.....BB.

With all the good intensions you have, I can see a few things coming back and biting you in the butt more than the legal system. For starters, inventoried trails are nothing new to the orv scene. For instance, people have started doing this for 4wd trails systems here in Tx. Some are legal, some aren't. What has resulted in this is over crowding. And, since the majority of orv (be it atv, 4wd, or bikes) do not affiliate with any type of organized club, then they tend to be less respectfull as a whole to the surroundings. This usually results in closing of trails. I'm sure you remember Angelina? Or, what about the way Spring Creek used to be a few years back. Granted, this has more affected the 4wd community than any other, but even San Jac river (242) has seen a major crack down on any type of motorized use.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be greedy and keep all the trails for the few who know about them. Unfortunately, that's what's starting to happen. More so, I'd like to see the clubs being the ones who introduce new people to existing trails. When people join clubs, they do so with a sence of dedication to the club. Resulting in a respect for the land when they use it. As a result, landowners are more likely to allow the use of there land for responsible use.

Ray

You are very right though. The number one reason why this idea is considered bad....even by me to some degree....is that all those little "secret" places where my buddies and I ride on Spring Creek and the San Jac River would no longer be our private playgrounds. With publicity comes crowds. Crowds brings in dumbasses who screw up everything for everybody else. With D.A.s comes the complaints by local residents. With that comes ol'Goober County Mountie...or worse, some local City like Oak Ridge or Splendora or Patton Village who can't make enough booty off their semi-legal speed traps.

Clubs and respect for the land is the answer. But, there are alot more ATVs and Jeeps in Texas than the clubs can handle. We need the Texas Waterways. Since 98% of land in this state is privately owned, National Forests won't cut it. And the State Parks will never be open to Motorized...especially vehicles that aren't street legal and inspected.

We need organizations like the TMTC to make the Recreational Trails Funds work for us by buying land. But, we also need the laws changed to allow us our Texas Constitutional Right to use the Texas Waterways as the open transportation circuit they were intended to be by our states founders. By making the public aware of all the citizens who WANT to use the rivers and creeks, but CAN'T because of local laws, we stand a better chance of success than by simply allowing the lawmen to harass us from one generation to the next.

Jeez, now I'm confusing myself! I quit....boy, I've said that before!....then, a week or two later, I'm right back out there hiding from Johnny Law and teachin' my son how to be a criminal.....Naw, I ain't gonna let them beat me.....

So, how DO we do it? Working within the system and expecting change is like expecting more than two candidates for President to get fair news coverage and debate time.....who cares what the truth is....the race is fixed folks...give in or get mad. That's it. So, we start by inventorying what is rightfully ours....then we find a way to take it back.

Anyone got a better idea? This is the place to say it....if you write Austin, you'll never get a reply.....

One thing you do have going for you is the existing navigable riverway laws. A friend of mine has more info on that though. I'll see about getting him on the forum when he get's back from vacation. He can point you to some very interesting laws that can open up places like the San Jac river.

Ray

That would be great! Really....I'd like that very much. For quite a long time, I've had an ongoing search of the laws governing the municipality right to ticket on state owned waterways and all of the Texas Waterways laws regarding our right to navigate. Best I can get it, if you put your ATV on a raft and have a horse pull it by cable, you can walk any river bank in Texas without breaking the law......oh, and of course, if you're surveying, the trespassing laws don't apply either.

Maybe we should form the Texas Offroad Survey Corporation........
.....little jackets, maps and radios for everybody with an ATV!

Bobby, I am a land surveyor. As far as I know, there is no trespass exemption for surveyors. We have to have permission to enter the lands we survey. But of course, we hop fences all the time to get a clearer shot, and no one bothers us. As for the waterways law, your trails may not be as illegal as you think. The state supposedly owns the area between the median banks of rivers, as far upstream as a width of 30 feet is maintained. Sometimes this is a pretty wide area of dry land, especially when the water is down. This area is supposedly for public access. But if a private owner fences down past the median bank to keep his cows in, and blocks your dirt bike, I wouldn't blame him if he sent some choice words your way if you were to cut his fence. His cows put food on his table, your dirt bike does not put food on yours. You are right that this area of the law is fuzzy and difficult to appy to the real world situation. I hope it gets clarified, and makes it easier for all land users to get along.

"You have to climb way out on a limb, to get all the fruit"

Hi Tripod,

Thanks for bumping this back up to the top. I'd have to really search heavy just to find all the information I have gathered on the Texas Waterways laws, but I remember the portion I was referring to was to allow survey teams to access land where local municipality restrictions apply. For instance, municipalities have a legal right to waterway land where ever a bridge built by them crosses or where waterways for runoff and other water disposal have been built and intersect with other larger waterways. The law requires a license or registration and the teams must be wearing clothing to identify them as a survey team. The only reason I even remember it was because it looked like a good way to screw with the local lawmen....and that always gets me excited. I live on Spring Creek at I-45, so Oak Ridge Police and the Montgomery Co. Sheriffs' hold a special place in my heart. Oak Ridge is special....Never knew a local police dept to buy Jeeps for law enforcement in a suburban neighborhood before.....

Oh-Oh.....supercross is on ESPN-2.....gotta' go for now.....let's keep this going later....I'll look forward to it....Bobby